Director of rugby — now there is a fancy title. What does he do?
I don’t really enjoy the name. He’s in charge of coaching and player pathways from sort of under-16 up. Making sure we keep all our good players and make the Stags successful and make the academy work and develop some local coaches. That’s the general gist of it. We’re focused on local talent — the development and retention of it — but we’re never not going to need to recruit so I’m in charge of a lot of that as well.
What’s the single biggest challenge you’ve struck?
Winning. That seems to be quite hard. No, nothing yet. Recruitment is tough, because coming to Invercargill to play for the worst team is not an easy sell. We need to do something so people want to be part of it. We’re setting some good foundations.
Are there still plenty of good rugby people around Southland at all levels?
Yeah, 100%. You saw how our supporters came out when we played Otago. We’ve got people dying for success, and we haven’t had it for 10 years. It’s a rugby province and people love it. The support is there — we just need to get better.
The Stags have had a draw and six losses this year. How do you feel the team is tracking?
We haven’t had a blow-out. We just haven’t executed at critical moments. Winning’s a habit, and we don’t have that habit yet. When we get close, we haven’t nailed key moments. Effort-wise, you can’t fault them. We’re setting good foundations but we need to keep a core together.
There are some good Southland lads playing for Otago — Sean Withy, Cam Millar and the like. Are you always going to lose players like that because of the pull of Dunedin, or can you hold on to them?
We can hold on to them now because we’ve changed our structure. We’ve set up an academy in Dunedin — sort of a branch of Southland rugby. So we are trying really hard to keep all of our decent players. Southland Boys’ were unreal this year. But that’s one school — Auckland has 20. You are talking three or four players a year who can play for the Stags. In a good year, five or six. So we need to keep every single one we can.
Southland Boys’ winning the New Zealand First XV title was special, wasn’t it?
Unreal. The coaching staff did such a good job motivating those young fellas. They managed to find a way. I don’t know how they did it. Really impressive. A lot of those boys have already been involved with our academies for two or three years.
We’ve had NZR boss Mark Robinson saying the NPC is no longer fit fr purpose. A big review saying there are basically too many unions at the top level. Crowds have disappeared. What’s the future of the NPC and provincial rugby in general?
It’s interesting. New Zealand without the NPC is Australia. We’ve been the best in the world over 20 years because the NPC is a part of that. I don’t see an issue with the amount of teams. Can we think outside the square — do all NPC games need to be televised? Do Otago play in Oamaru once a year, or do Southland play in Gore once a year? Get 3000-4000 in to a smaller ground with lower costs. Can every game be at 2.30pm on a Saturday like the old days? New Zealand rugby isn’t New Zealand rugby without the NPC. If teams are going to get culled, what is it based on? If it’s on financials, Wellington are gone. If it’s on performance, we’re gone, but we’re actually going well financially and we’re spending within our means. Who would you cut if they got rid of four teams? Tasman? But they’ve been highly successful. There are lots of views around but there are no solutions — it’s just all the problems.
Some of us want the old model with three divisions and promotion-relegation. Thoughts?
The problem is the gap is now so big. If we had a promotion-relegation game, we’d probably win by 70. That is the issue. I did like it back in the day. It was quite fun. But if you’re talking saving money — and New Zealand rugby is all about the All Blacks — why would you keep Heartland rugby? It has no effect on the All Blacks. But how could you get rid of the Heartland teams? You just can’t.
You were just a St Kevin’s College pupil when you made your debut for North Otago in a Ranfurly Shield challenge against Waikato in 2000. What are your memories?
I marked Mark Ranby and Keith Lowen. It was my first game against men, and I was marking an All Black. I remember being at my aunty’s in Timaru because it was the school holidays. I nearly had a breakdown because I was so scared. Pure fear. I remember making 40-odd tackles and I couldn’t lift my arms when I woke up the next morning. The only thing I remember from the game is Dean Paterson’s beautiful try.
What was the best thing about playing real grassroots provincial rugby?
Just the people. Same with every team. I was talking to Barry Fox the other day and it had probably been 20 years. There were some real characters like Dallas Newlands and Grant Johnston. I remember Hunter Darry giving me a couple of whacks in the head to see how I would handle it. You don’t get that these days.
You then forged a very decent NPC and Super Rugby career. What was the highlight?
I don’t blow my own trumpet but I am proud of this. I’m the only man to have played for North Otago, Otago, Southland and the Highlanders, unless you can tell me another one. Out of all that, obviously winning the Ranfurly Shield with Southland. And we made the top four for two years. The other one was making an NPC final with Otago, and beating a full-strength Canterbury team twice.
You did a little coaching after your playing days. Was that something you intended to pursue?
That was the initial goal. But I felt I needed something else. I’d coached at club level, reasonably unsuccessfully. I was probably too intense. Then the opportunity came up to run a Four Square, so I went down that path.
How long did you spend running the shop in Tapanui?
Six and a-half years. And what I learned there has been more beneficial than anything else — just dealing with people and stress management. We ran it through Covid. I think I’m more empathetic now, and understanding of people’s situations. It was a hell of a change and I learned plenty.
And you were training some horses too?
In 2012, just when I finished up playing, I bought a place and it had a track on it. I thought it was something I’d look into. Archie Armour came out and we trained a few for about 10 years. Honestly, if I could do anything with my life, it would be waking up to train half a dozen horses, and have a hit of golf in the afternoon. That would be a dream. I love the horses and I wouldn’t mind getting back into it one day. Great people. It’s a hard industry, though.
How are the family?
Good. My fiancee, Joleen, and I have two kids. Amalie is 8 and Harrison is 7. Harrison loves sport and Amalie loves dancing.
You have a unique nickname: Panel. Where does that come from?
I actually got asked this just yesterday. Tom Donnelly started it. We were on a New Zealand Youth tour. There was a bit of an incident, and Tom invented that. You’ll have to ask him.
