Can you tell us a story that highlights your fascination with New Zealand’s reptiles and amphibians?
I was up in the mountains, deep in the west of the South Island, searching for a species of alpine gecko called the cascade gecko. An amazing gecko found hundreds of metres off the ground, up cliffs. Just an astonishing reptile.
There weren’t really any good spots to pitch my tent. The only slightly flat spot was right next to a cliff. So I pitched my tent there, just a metre or so away from the edge of a sheer bluff.
And the wind was astounding; the strongest winds I’ve ever experienced up there. And naturally, I was struggling to get to sleep because my whole tent was moving around non-stop in the wind. But eventually, I did.
Later, I wake up and look above me and I can see the stars — because the fly of my tent has been ripped clean out of the ground by the strength of the wind.
I thought it was best to move, but I really wanted to find these geckos. So, I was frantically trying to pack my tent while the wind was trying to pull it away from me off into the ether.
Once I got packed down I thought, "Where am I going to sleep?".
Then the thought occurred to me that I might be able to find a hole under a rock, because that would be a lot more sheltered. So, I was searching around for places to sleep. And I found this big rock slab that was leaning over another rock.
A lot of New Zealand’s geckos are what we call saxicolous, which means they primarily inhabit rocks. So, I channelled my inner-gecko, if you will, and crawled underneath the rock, much like a gecko would, and spent the night there. It was cold, but I was safe.
I did actually get some sleep, believe it or not. And I found the cascade gecko the next day, too.
That’s a great story. But tell me, lizards schmizards, why should we care about New Zealand’s reptiles and amphibians?
They’re amazing. They have an inherent value just because of how beautiful and diverse they are. They also have a cultural value. They’re frequently mentioned in many Maori myths and legends. And they also do have an important ecological role. That is not as clearly understood as it could be, but it’s possible they play roles in seed dispersal and they are food for other native species, including many of our birds. So, yeah, they’re just amazing.
How many reptiles and amphibians do we have in Aotearoa New Zealand?
About 141, so there are a lot. Many people have seen a little brown skink in their garden and they think that’s about it. But we’re actually one of the most diverse temperate regions on the planet when it comes to lizards. We often think of Aotearoa as a land of birds. We are very much also a land of reptiles.
How endangered are they? What’s their status?
About 50 species are threatened with extinction. Ten of those are considered nationally critical, the highest threat ranking, which means we really need to protect them so that we can stop them from going extinct. And there are about 70 species at risk of extinction. So, most of our lizards aren’t doing great. There’s a lot of work we need to do.
Talking about threatened, am I right in thinking that people have stuffed New Zealand reptiles in their underpants and tried to smuggle them out of the country?
Unfortunately, yes, this is a true story. I often use it in education.
Geckos in particular, are just so unbelievably beautiful, that they’re prized by people overseas who collect reptiles. I can understand wanting one of these geckos, they’re absolutely adorable. However, we need to protect them in the natural environment and admire them there, not take them overseas. So, it’s not good.
It’s probably not the the biggest threat, though. Things like introduced mammalian predators, habitat modification; these are all much more significant stresses on these animals.
What work is being done to protect them?
There’s a lot. Some people like Carey Knox — he’s an amazing herpetologist — have done lots of survey work. He follows up on records of species or searches of new areas, trying to learn more about species we don’t know much about, for instance the awakopaka skink. It’s only known from a single tiny location. So he’s been going all over the show trying to find new populations. Because it’s looking a little scary if they’re only in this one little spot.
There’s also lots of monitoring work being done. Repeatedly monitoring sites so we can have more long-term information.
And there’s all sorts of other cool work being done by community groups and various organisations such as translocations and putting up predator-resistant fences.
If somebody is interested in reptiles and amphibians, is it OK for them to go spotting them?
It’s absolutely OK. Our lizards are protected under the Wildlife Act. That means you’re not supposed to handle them, you’re best to just admire them, but you can go looking for them. You can find them by lifting rocks and logs, but you don’t want to damage their habitat.
Some geckos live way up in trees or bushes. So you can go in at night with a spotlight, or during the day, and search for them up in trees.
How did you become a herpetologist? Herpetologist — that’s a great word, I have to say.
I was always fascinated with reptiles and amphibians. Every opportunity I could get to volunteer to work with our native reptiles, I took. Carey Knox was instrumental in that. I was always sending him emails and messages, nagging him to join him out in the field and learn from him.
You did your undergraduate degree here at the University of Otago?
Correct. I did study at the university and I also did a postgraduate diploma in wildlife management. At the moment, I’m working on a master’s thesis looking at alpine geckos.
Has Otago been a good place for somebody with an interest in reptiles?
One hundred percent. Otago is actually the most diverse region in the country when it comes to lizards. Sometimes you have to travel a few hours and climb up a mountain, but it’s a great spot.
I understand you’re quite the photographer as well.
I’ve always been inspired when I’ve seen other people’s photographs. Because of the impact it’s had on me, I’ve wanted to do that myself — try to effect some change, get people interested in these animals and caring about them.
Social media seems to be quite a big thing for you. Why do you have that presence on social media?
Again, I want to reach out to people and that’s a good way to do it. Showing people photographs and telling stories about these amazing animals is ultimately what’s going to get them to care.
What are you hoping to do after completing your master’s degree?
Probably continue what I’m doing, more or less. I’d possibly like to get a full-time herpetologist role somewhere.
The title of your book is A naturalist’s guide to the reptiles and amphibians of New Zealand. Is this book also for people who wear clothes?
My mother said the same thing. She said, "Oh, it’s a naturist’s guide". I mean, if you want to express yourself that way, that’s absolutely fine. If you can connect to the natural world that way, by all means. It’s a book for anyone.
A book is a bit of an "old school" format for somebody with more than 64,000 Tiktok fans. Why a book?
The opportunity arose and I was very keen. I think the dissemination of information by a variety of media is so important — putting as much information out there as possible so people can access it.
Geckos and lizards are quite small, but do you think the book should have been at least an A5 format?
I mean, I love big pictures of lizards. But for this one, because it’s a field guide, it’s quite important to be small and compact so you can take it into the field with you and learn.
So where did all the great information and photos in the book come from?
I’ve used a whole bunch of different scientific papers, previous field guides, information from colleagues and my own knowledge.
Can you tell me about one creature that you are stoked to have been able to include in your book?
There is a photo in the book of the largest skink in New Zealand, the robust skink. It’s actually the longest recorded specimen too. So, there’s a photo of a friend of mine holding it.
What do you hope this book will achieve?
I hope it will get people more excited about the natural world and, in particular, reptiles.
Birds always steal the spotlight. Us herpetologists, we get so frustrated, because everyone’s going on about how many kakapo there are ... These birds are amazing, don’t get me wrong, but we have so many special reptiles and amphibians that people must know about.
To finish, can you tell me about a significant New Zealand reptile field trip you have been on?
Carey Knox and I were going to go do some jewelled gecko field work. But we had to can the mission. So we decided to chase up an old lizard record — try to identify what species was living there. So, we drove way up into the mountains in search of this mysterious lizard. But we couldn’t find it.
Then on our way back down, we found some nice rocky habitat. By this time, it was probably midnight, or 1am.
There was this gecko that had only recently been discovered, which is now called the hura te ao gecko. At that point in time, it was only known from a tiny location and nowhere else. They’d done quite a few surveys and were unable to locate it elsewhere.
I was walking along and I just froze because I saw the tail of one of these things disappear into the rocks. And immediately, I just knew. I had never seen one of these things before and they were basically the top of my list of things that I wanted to see.
So, I saw this tail disappear and I just screamed, "A hura te ao gecko". And then I was like, "Heck, I haven’t actually seen the full animal".
I quickly ran over and started carefully moving rocks around. Then I got a glimpse of it. It turned back and I saw its eye and it was one hundred percent a hura te ao gecko.
Carey came down. I was so shocked I was shaking.
We started moving rocks and then there it was. We’d found a new population of these geckos that were only previously known from one tiny location. It was really exciting. And that’s what I’m doing my master’s thesis on — this gecko, trying to learn even more about it.
