The Otago University club has produced more All Blacks than any other club in New Zealand. Rugby writer Steve Hepburn takes a look at a couple of dream teams which have been named on the eve of the club's 125th celebrations next weekend.
He may have been the only New Zealand captain to ever lift the World Cup but David Kirk cannot even make the starting line-up of the Otago University club's dream team.
Kirk, who studied medicine at the University of Otago in the 1980s, was judged only good enough for the bench in the post-World War II University of Otago dream team.
But Kirk should not feel too bad. This is a pretty hard side to make.
The club had 44 All Blacks - and some 377 Otago representatives - to pick from.
Kirk has some impressive talent beside him on the bench in the likes of Marc Ellis, Jamie Joseph and Taine Randell.
The club's current All Black, Adam Thomson, will also have to watch on the sidelines.
Such is the depth of the club's playing ranks over the years, any dream team will have some notable omissions.
Club historian Hugh Tohill, Otago sports commentator Iain Gallaway and University club life member Rex Thomson got together to pick the pre-war and post-war teams, which coincide with the club's 125th celebrations next weekend.
Thomson said it was a lot of fun picking the teams and showed how much playing depth had been through the club.
The three men did not have an actual meeting but picked their own teams, and then sent them in to be compared.
There was a remarkable similarity in the teams selected, with only one position going to a casting vote - wing in the pre-war team, with All Black wing Colin Gilray eventually getting the vote, narrowly ahead of Dick Webb, who scored more than 100 tries for the University club in the 1920s.
Coaches were not named but Thomson said the pre-war team would undoubtedly be coached by Vic Cavanagh sen, while the post-war coach would be extremely hard to pick, with the likes of Gordon Hunter and Tony Gilbert in contention.
Thomson said it was frightening the amount of depth the club had.
In the post-war team every player in the starting XV was an All Black.
"There is a lot of depth especially in the backs. You look at halfback and there were three All Black halfbacks we could have picked from," Thomson said.
"Then you have the loose forwards. The likes of Taine Randell and Jamie Joseph missed out, and they weren't bad players, were they ?"
In the post-war team, players who have played more than 100 games for Otago, such as John Leslie, Wayne Graham and Rob Roy did not even get a look-in.
But it would be hard to argue against any of the selections.
Chris Laidlaw in front of Kirk and Ant Strachan.
Mike Brewer and Josh Kronfeld ahead of the likes of Randell, Brent Pope and Josh Blackie.
The selectors gave themselves the luxury of naming a 10-strong bench.
No captain was named but Thomson said in the pre-war team Abe Munro would probably be the skipper. The hooker went on the Invincibles tour, but injury intervened early in the tour, and he played a limited part in the tour.
In the post-war team, the skipper would be either centre Ron Elvidge or hooker Anton Oliver, Thomson said, depending on whether you wanted a back or forward to skipper the side.
Thomson said the club was still producing good young players, but it was not like 10 to 20 years ago when the most promising players in the country headed south.
Good players were still coming, but many who had previously headed south were tied to provincial union academies about which he had some reservations.
The pre-war team had the likes of Gilray and fullback Ron Bush. Gilray made himself unavailable for the Originals tour to concentrate on his studies.
He then won a Rhodes scholarship and played for his country of birth, Scotland.
He returned to New Zealand and fought in World War 1 before going on to be principal at John McGlashan College.
He then moved to Australia where he was heavily involved in private school education.
Bush was a co-founder of the Barbarians club in 1937, and was a New Zealand selector in the 1960s.
The pre-war team does not have as many All Blacks as its counterpart but times were different. Players did not get paid, so they could not afford to go away from home for long periods, and stopped playing rugby when still quite young.
Gilray, for example, could have made a name for himself on the long Originals tour but, with his father the head of English literature at the university, and he himself heading for first-class honours in English and German, he decided to stay home.
Otago University Xvs
• Pre-World War 2
Ron Bush* Colin Gilray*++, Harold (Hatch) Fookes, Colin Gillies *, Jim Watt*, Trevor Berghan*, Arthur Holden, David Dickson*, Francis Green, Phillippe Sidney de Quetteville Cabot *, Eric Harty, Immanuel Vusailagi, Harold Service, Abe Munro, James Hamilton.
Reserves.-
Backs: John (Jock). Cuthill*, Alan Adams+, Arnold Perry*, Billy W. R. Fea*, Manahi Paewai.
Forwards: William Abel, Brian Dunne, Albert Hartnell, William Laney, Alfred Valentine.
*All Black, +England, ++Scotland.
• Post-World War 2
Tony Davies, John Timu, Ron Elvidge, Howard Levien, Tuppy Diack, Earle Kirton, Chris Laidlaw, Arran Pene, Mike Brewer, Josh Kronfeld, Keith Nelson, Simon Maling, Mark Irwin, Anton Oliver, Paul Sapsford.
Reserves.-
Backs: Evan Taylor, David Halligan, Warwick Taylor, Marc Ellis, David Kirk.
Forwards: Taine Randell, Des Oliver, Adam Thomson, Jamie Joseph, David Morgan.
NB: All but Evan Taylor, David Halligan and David Morgan were All Blacks.
