There have been few tougher players to step on to a rugby field than Buck Shelford.
The former All Black No8 was renowned for the uncompromising manner in which he played the game.
He spoke at an Otago Medical Research Foundation dinner yesterday.
It was different in those days, of course.
Much more was let go and there are many who claim it was a harder game.
That has come into the spotlight of late.
Controversial cards were given in both the first two tests between the All Blacks and France, as World Rugby looks to clean up the game and, more than anything, protect the head.
Some have suggested it has gone too far.
For Shelford, it is a case of understanding the differences in the way the players of today train.
"In my era it was quite different," he said.
"We didn’t pump iron like these guys today. They’re physically stronger and harder than what we used to be.
"In our day, the game was hard, but it was hard for that context.
"Everyone was strong for what they’d done. Our strengths were just natural strengths, rather than weightlifting strengths.
"So the more muscle mass you have, the stronger you become, the hits are stronger."
He added his voice to the suggestion that a report system — such as the one in rugby league — would be better than red carding a player.
That provided time to analyse an incident and a player could still be stood down for a game, rather than having such a big impact on the game in question.
Reducing a team by a player made defending so difficult for the rest of the game it was unfair — particularly if the decision was wrong.
He said many of the high tackles for which players received cards were reaction-based, rather than intentionally malicious.
In those cases, he wondered if it would be better to take more time to decide the sanction.
"Every try they always seem to go upstairs because they’re scared they’re going to make a mistake and they can waste all that time going upstairs for that.
"But why don’t they do that for any high tackle and look for the intent?
"If it was intentional, give him a yellow card.
"Then go back to it afterwards because he goes on report. If they deem it could have been a red, stand him down for one game.
"He was not sure some of the new laws were the right way to go either.
One notable one was forcing players to tackle below the nipple line, which had been experimented with in different competitions. Not only did that make it difficult for a tall player to tackle a short player, but it was not solving the problem of protecting the head.
"I think it’s going to make it worse.
"You’re going to get tacklers going low that aren’t that good at putting their head in the right places.
"The head injuries aren’t coming to the ball carrier, they’re coming to the tacklers.
"So you’re lowering the tackler, you’re going further down and you’re forcing them to go around the legs.
"Then you’re putting more heads in front of knees.
"He added that mauls tend to be more dangerous than tackles, as players were often exposed and were able to get away with not using their arms in contact.
"A tackler has to use his arms in the tackle.
"If you’re in a maul and you’re exposed and your arms are up in the air, I can come and smash you in the ribs as hard as I can and get away with it.
"So it makes a farce of the law.
"It’s really hard to get your arm around a person attached to a maul.
"You hit him with your shoulder first and then where do you put your arms?
"There’s more damage happens in a maul than it does in a tackle."
Shelford (60) lives in Auckland and is in good health.
He remains passionate about junior rugby, although he finished coaching in 2016.